Hey Munch,

I had the same problem my first year with NT. Once I gave in to the hunger,I ate and ate and gained 20 pounds. I maintained that for a few months, and then gained 10 more. I then lost 10 the following year, and have stayed heavy ever since. I don’t think NT works for everyone as far as weight loss goes.. Some of us, no matter how hard we try, just stay heavy. However, it is the only way to go as far as I am concerned.

Munch,

Can you tell me what you mean when you say, “I never let myself get hungry?”

Can you tell me what you ate yesterday, when you got up, what and about how much you ate, when and why you stopped eating when you did each time, etc. throughout the day.  Also, what you did physically.

I also need to know your diet history (diet type and weight lost/regained) before Naturally Thin, especially the five years before.

Sincerely,
Jean

What I mean by never letting myself get hungry is I eat within 1/2 hour of waking and usually within 15 minutes of my first signs of hunger throughout the day. Fortunately I have a job that on most days allows me to take a break whenever I get hungry.

I have weighed myself monthly since 2001 and kept track.  In 2001 I was 204 lbs.  My lowest weight was 4 years ago when I had a full hysterectomy.  I weighed 193 then.  I am on high blood pressure and cholesterol meds plus Fosomax, but no horomone replacements. 

My highest weight prior to NT was 212 lbs. in 2005.  Prior to NT (Sept 2009)I was 206 lbs.  I got frustrated in the weight slowly creeping back up since my hysterectomy hence my efforts at NT. 

Weight watchers is the only “real diet” I’ve ever been on.  I always believed if you eat the right balance of good foods you don’t need to diet.  My problem has been my craving for sweets.  While I won’t say I don’t want them, I don’t eat them anymore.  (I have an occasional piece of hard candy or a piece of gum if I need somthing sweet, but usually not more than one a day.)  I do agree that my sweet cravings have lessened since I’ve bumped up my good fats.  I tried Weight Watchers twice - once in 1993.  I lost a little weight VERY slowly.  I eventually got tired of paying the money to go and quit.  I tried it again in 2003 with similar results.

Yesterday was a little unusual because I’m on vacation so I got up later.  I ate shortly after waking about 7:30 a.m.  (Normally I eat the same thing, but am on my way to work at 6:45 a.m.)
7:45 a.m. - 3 eggs (two egg beaters and one egg with mushrooms and onions - I have high cholesterol) cooked in Olive oil with a cheddar cheese square melted on top, two pieces of whole wheat toast with butter, 8 oz oj, 1 cup of chia tea with 1 cup skim milk (I like skim milk)
11:15a.m. - banana and vege burger with provolone cheese on bread, diet Mountain Dew (I also sip on water throughout the day)- I was hungry enough to have something before I went shopping.  That was enough to satisfy me until I got back home.
2:00 p.m. - Split pea and ham soup homemade - 2 cups - and 1/2 ham sandwich with butter, blackberries and grapes
5:15 p.m. - Homemade spaghetti (about 2 cups whole wheat noodles and 2 cups sauce) loaded with veges and ground turkey and parmesan cheese, 1-2 cups salad with veges and sunflower seeds and 1-2 tbsp full fat dressing
8:00 p.m. -  2 cups Cheerois with blackberries and skim milk

I usually drink at least 6 cups of water a day in addition to my other beverages which are usually tea or fruit juice and an occasional diet soda.  Like my husband said “you eat a lot!”  He didn’t mean it to be cruel, but I have to agree - I think I do eat a lot.

Yesterday morning I mowed the lawn (about 45 minutes - a few hills - enough to make me sweat).  I also did grocery shoppping at two stores (about 1 hour of walking).

My normal exercise includes 30-45 minutes of walking daily and usually break a sweat when I do. I’m fairly active doing things around the house.  Because I have back issues I cannot sit a lot without being in pain.  I used to do 30 minutes of the elliptical or treadmill 5 times a week, but have not been on that pattern for about 3 years.  I used to lift weights (nothing significant, just to help with the osteoprosis), but haven’t been doing that for the last 6 months because of my back pain upon advice from my doctor.

Does that help?  Any other information I can provide?

Kelcy, I have to agree with you.  I’m beginning to wonder if I will always be heavy.  I’m not looking to be thin.  I just want to be comfortable doing everyday things.  My weight is affecting my quality of life.  I’d be happy if I could just get down to a more comfortable range for my body size/type.  I don’t care if I’m not thin.  (I’m 5’3” and I would say have a large bone structure.)  I would LOVE to not have to be obsessed with food AND not be hungry trying to get to a reasonable body size. 

I’m feeling very discouraged trying so any support is appreciated!

Thanks

Munch

Jean,

How important is the five year diet history prior to beginning NT? Does it have much of an effect after following NT for 6 years? Do some of us just have to accept the fact that we will always be overweight, even very overweight?

Thanks,

Kelcy

Munch,

Sorry to hear you are in so much pain…I can’t help much, as I haven’t been NTing long enough to really be of any help.  I hope things right themselves and you won’t be so down.  I think we can all understand that at times it feels hopeless, this rotten weight-thing!

-Sindy

Munch, can you tell me why you stopped eating when you did each time and how you knew how much food to prepare? 

Also, what was your eating pattern before you started NT?  You said you weren’t dieting, but how and what were you eating?  You said you had sweets cravings.  What did you do about those?  Did your weight fluctuate significantly?  Were you exercising?  Were you trying to keep the weight off that you lost when you had a hysterectomy?  If so, how were you doing that?

Here are some ideas that may or may not apply to you.  I can’t know for sure without more information.

Sometimes people in recovery hear the “Eat when you’re hungry” message loud and clear, but miss the “tune in to your fuel full signals carefully.”  We all have the capacity to eat right past the full signals which can be quite subtle at first.  So this takes work and practice.  Also, some Naturally Thin people early in recovery become worried about eating ENOUGH and they inadvertently push those fuel-full signals to manage their anxiety about a famine.  You are eating significantly at 8:00 pm.  Is is possible for you to have a piece of fruit or glass of skim milk or just water?

I don’t believe that the Naturally Thin program only applies to a lucky few. All bodies are designed to adapt and readapt to changing environments.  They just won’t do it in a hurry.

Hang in there, we’ll figure this out,
Jean

Kelcy,

The diet history of a person starting Naturally Thin is significant because it has set the biochemical stage for adaptation through fat accumulation.  Weight lost through famine must be regained to satisfy the body’s needs for survival.  Once the famines end (when NT begins), the body goes through a very gradual biochemical adjustment which affects appetite, cravings, interest, metabolic rate and energy level.  Fat gradually becomes maladaptive—working against survival—and the body’s new job is to get rid of it. 

The person who is trying to cooperate with this readaptation must tune in very carefully to her body in order for food intake to fall below the physiological need.  Along with increased metabolic rate, improved food quality and higher physical output, this lowered food intake provokes the gradual burning of now unnecessary fat.

I don’t believe that any body is beyond these principles, although morbidly obese people face daunting issues of patience and perhaps the need to eat only extremely high quality foods right on time.  I have stated in the book that “each individual must discover for herself how well she must eat in order to provoke weight loss.”  Some bodies do not tolerate even occasional famines.  Some need a high proportion of fruits and vegetables with fewer grains.  Every body is unique.

The good news is, you only have to figure out one: your own.

Sincerely,
Jean

Munch,

  It must be awful for you. I had a little back pain and general aches like in my legs, feet, when I was at my highest weight and that was definitely no picnic for me, so this weight gain of 30# must be terribly frustrating as it intensifies your pain and makes life so miserable.  Let me say your story brings back memories for me, at my 8 month NT point.  For me at 8 months, I don’t think I was weighing then because I have no recollection how much I weighed, but was up to a size 14.  But remember, I started with mostly size 4’s in my closet, along with a few 2’s and 0’s! While that size (14) is nothing to some people, and totally normal, it seemed totally off the charts for me! (I didn’t learn of my weight until a Dr. appointment at 9 months) The amounts of food and times you eat now, as listed in your above post, seemed similar to what I was eating at 8 months.  But my choices didn’t seem quite as healthy as yours, and I guess not as balanced. It was not unusual for me to have 4 large bagels with peanut butter at a sitting, mid-morning, or mid-afternoon.  I was a bread fanatic.  Had no desire for veggies.  I truly had no idea when my appetite would taper off, or when I would go a day without peanut butter.  I wondered if I would ever like veggies again. I thought I was eating an incredible amount of food, and yes I thought about food a lot, like what could I have on hand that I would like, and how could I get it prepared quickly.  And how annoying it was to always have food available to take with me.  I always held out hope that my appetite would taper off, I just didn’t know when.  I certainly didn’t expect to see any results at 8 months, and I didn’t.  I am actually SURPRISED, I truly am, to have the results I have now, to be in a size 8 after 27 months.  Just last year I was in 12’s and 14’s.  I had it in my head that the process would take at least 5 years, and to not expect quick results.  I didn’t want to kid myself. I had been a swimmer, but was worn out from dieting and exercising, and it took me awhile to get back to the pool.  I finally did last July.  I was concerned I would start calculating how much I had burned swimming, and not be able to swim for just the good feeling, but thankfully I don’t calculate, and I really enjoy it now.  So I think it’s great you are keeping up with your exercise.  I was petrified to go back to swimming, didn’t want to see how awful I looked in a swimsuit, and was worried how I would get out of the pool like I used to-just hoisting my butt up on the edge, with my arms.  I figured I weighed too much to do that, and that everybody would be staring at me trying to get out, and not being able to!  So when I finally went back I made sure I got the lane by the steps!  I’m all over that insecurity now, but it was dreadful at the time.

Of course I’m going to say to you “hang in there.”  I always knew if I ever gave up on NT, I’d eventually come back out of desperation,  and that first year getting used to eating NT was so hard on me, deprogramming, thinking about food all the time, but most of all, for me it was seeing that extra poundage on my body, being a very vain person.  And I did not want to have to go through all of that a second time.  No way.  I was going to do it once, and persevere however long it took, because I could not fathom a “do-over.”  Munch, I have to say, I honestly believe you will be back here again, sooner or later, if you quit NT now.  Can you really see yourself doing it all over again, what you’ve gone through these 8 months?  You have 8 months in, don’t throw them away!  What I did love though, was the freedom to eat.  To obey my hunger cues and satisfy them.  Slowly over time my initial huge appetite tapered down, and thinking about food doesn’t seem as annoying, but more instinctual now.

I know you have read, and reread the book many, many times.  And I know your diet history consists of WW two times, but not for long, because you’ve said it was too hard for you to stick to a diet.  In your opinion, based on what Jean says in her books about undereating causing overeating, and eating too late will cause you to want high fat, high sugar foods, what is it that you feel has caused you to be overweight mostly all of your life?  I know people who are overweight, and say they are not dieting, and can’t help but wonder if they are restricting and don’t realize it, or going most of the day with little food, then eating big-time at night.  So I wonder why you feel you had a weight problem prior to starting NT, if you weren’t dieting.  I know personally my bingeing came from my restricting, and also from very low fat.  That would keep me cycling.  I have pinpointed that. Have you been able to determine for yourself what habits kept you overweight, from way back in 5th grade, until you started NT?

Munch, I think for me what kept me hanging on, is I knew Jean was TOTALLY right!  Everything I read made total sense.  Like, your body will hang on to fat if it thinks you are in a famine, that’s how it keeps you alive, and I could see how my bingeing kept me alive, if it weren’t for my survival instinct kicking in, inspiring me to eat those fatty, sugary binge foods, my strict dieting would have put me in my grave.  Jean wrote absolutely nothing that I could refute. I agree now, and I agreed back when I first started, but you MUST be willing to do the time. I just saw someone last week who has put on a massive amount of weight, after being on a diet.  I see this ALL the time.  I heard a neighbor say she just started WW after putting on some menopause weight—yikes, I think I should have screamed, NO, DON’T!!!!!!  But was too afraid of looking like a loon, but in hindsight, I really should have.

So Munch, the choice is yours, but every time you say you are frustrated and about to quit, I’m going to come right back at ya and try to talk some sense into you.

Jean and NT-er’s,
First off, sorry for the long post.  I’ll have to do this in two parts as it won’t let me post in all in one.  The next post will be my diet and weight history.  I want to provide Jean (and others) with as much information as possible to help me figure this out.  And Jean, please let me know if you want to charge me for your consultations.  I just want to figure this out!!!

I appreciate the support and encouragement from those of you who replied.  As Jean says “I want to get it!”  And thanks Swan for reminding me that a diet will only be temporary and I’ll always be fighting that.  I don’t feel like I’m very vain.  Self-conscious maybe.  I teach at the college level.  I found myself this spring being more conscious of being up front with 30 students looking at my fat body.  My husband has been very supportive which helps.  He started to read the book, but didn’t get very far.  So he’s supportive to an extent.  He still doesn’t fully understand NT.

Lately I do not want to plan any trips to see people I haven’t seen in a year (i.e. family) because I have gained so much weight so quickly.  But mostly it’s about feeling better physically.  I am struggling with doing everyday things and having physical problems.  I also feel like I really have to push myself to do things now.  I never used to be like that.  I HATED sitting around.  But when my back or my foot hurts me when I expend energy it’s difficult to keep at it…

I’ve never been able to go long without eating something pretty regularly.  As Jean says, I must be very famine sensitive because while I do not seem to binge, I never seem to be more than a few waking hours away from eating something.

I usually make extra food when I cook so I always have left overs.  So knowing how much to eat and when to stop?  I usually cue into my body.  I take my first helping and tell myself if I’m still hungry when it’s gone I can have more.  Sometimes I do, sometimes I don’t.  It is very rare for me to stuff myself to the point of being uncomfortable.  I think that’s why it’s not uncommon for me to be hungry again a few hours later.  That got me thinking perhaps I was medicating my hunger as NT says.  So I’ve been trying really hard to eat until I was full to try to eliminate my need to have a bowl of cereal before I go to bed.  Occasionally I am successful but many nights I’m hungry before I go to bed (usually to bed between 9:00 p.m and 10:00 p.m.) I’ve tried just having a piece of fruit before I go to bed instead, but I wake up to go to the bathroom and find myself hungry.  Usually I can go back to sleep for a few hours at least.  Once in awhile I have to get up and eat something, but not very often.  I haven’t tried a glass of milk.  I really don’t like to drink plain milk.  But maybe I could try having another cup of chai tea (decaf) with skim milk if I’m hungry before bed. 

When I said I wasn’t dieting I meant not on a formal diet plan.  I’ve probably been watching what I eat since 5th grade when I became more self conscious, got my period for the first time and my father once said “Young lady - you need to lose some weight”  I was in the size 14/16 husky size at the time.  Oh what I wouldn’t do to be back in that size now!  I’ve always tried to eat from the four food groups and avoid fried and processed foods.  Chips, etc. have never been very appealing to me.  But I loved my sweets.  I always said if I could just get rid of the sweets I could lose weight.  In the past I always satisfied my sweet craving with a cookie or a few M & M’s, usually after both lunch and dinner.  It never needed to be more than that, but I definitely craved them.

I used to exercise more rigorously than I do now.  Since college I’ve done some form of areobic exercise 5 times per week for 30-45 minutes (usually elliptical, treadmill, walking, aerobics) and weights 2-3 times per week.  Up until 2007 I usually did this by getting up at 5:00 a.m. each morning and working out before work.  Since our last move three years ago I rarely work out before work.  I usually try to get in a few walks during the day or after work.  Sometimes I bike.

I did try to keep the weight off since my hysterectomy by exercise and sensible eating.  It seemed no matter how hard I tried (my husband said no one tried harder)it kept creeping up.  Diets restricting calories never worked for me because I seem to have a need to eat every few hours throughout the day.  I’m always amazed at how much longer my husband can go during the day without eating.  In fact he calls eating “maintenance eating.”  He forgets to eat.  Me?  Ha!  Never!

Here’s part two of my post:
Jean asked about my diet history.  I’ve had several periods in my diet history that I kept track of what I ate and when.  Below are two days of examples of diet and exercise from April of last year:
6:30 a.m. - Oatmeal with frest berries, whole wheat toast with light butter (with Canola oil), chai tea (my chai teas are 1 cup water, 1 cup skim milk, a decaf tea bag and at that time 1 tsp splenda (I now use 1 tsp real sugar).
10:30 a.m. - plum and 6 peanut M & M’s
11:30 a.m. - shipwreck hotdish (hamburger, kidney beans, potatoes, carrots)
12:00 p.m. - fresh Veges with dip, cookie
3:30 p.m. - Apple
5:30 p.m. - Ham, hash browns, pork-n-beans, bread, water
6:30 p.m. - Fruit, cookie, wtaer
9:30 p.m. - Multi grain cheerois

For exercise I walked 45 minutes that day (above and beyond my normal activity)

Here’s another day
6:30 a.m. - egg beaters with broccoli, mushroom, onion, cheddar cheese, whole wheat toast with light butter and jelly
7:30 a.m. - chai tea
9:30 a.m. - chai tie
10:45 a.m - pear
11:45 a.m. - Ham/bean soup, whole wheat bread
1:45 p.m. - peanut butter granola bar
2:15 p.m. - apple
5:30 p.m. - veges and dip
6:30 p.m. - chicken chow mein, brown rice, egg roll, chow mein noodles, baked alaska

Exercise:  30 minutes on the Wii (running, balance games, yoga stretches)

So I think you can see why I’m frustrated.  Both with dieting and NT.  In the past I’ve given in to sweets (I grew up in a family where my dad took the cake PAN and a fork to the TV and ate however much he wanted.)  Desserts were always a part of our evening meal and fruit was not defined as dessert.  It was cookies, cake, pie, etc.  So my dieting days prior to NT were spent getting clever with baking sweets with splenda, whole wheat flour, etc. to keep them healthier.  But I always had them, usually several times a day.  Again, not binging.  One or two cookies usually satisfied me, but I always wanted them.  I still think about them (especially cookies), but I do not seem to crave them as much anymore.  And you are all right - not having them in the house is the best strategy.

I like to cook so fortunately I am able to cook healthy choices.  If anything I’ve probably underate fat in the past.  I’ve tried to not do that anymore based on Jean’s advice eating full fats that I like (I still prefer the 2% lower fat versions of cheese and skim milk - I just don’t like the full fat versions even though I’ve tried them).  I’m also adding a few tbsp. of Olive oil to things I cook - in the past I would just use non-fat cooking spray.

Here’s my weight history since 2001:
Oct - 204
Dec - 193

2002
Jan - 204
April - 200
July - 205
Oct - 208

2003
Jan - 205
April - 206
August - 203
Oct - 204

2004
Jan - 207
April - 210
August - 206
Oct - 201

2005
Jan - 208
April - 212
August - 208

2006
Jan - 204
Feb - 202
Mar - 200
April 193 (hysterectomy)
July - 203
Sept - 203
Oct - 200
Nov - 199
Dec - 198

2007
Jan - 196
Feb - 197
March - 196
April 196
May 196
June - 194
July - 194
August - 196
Sept - 196
October 198
Nov 197
Dec 203

2008
Jan - 203
Feb - 202
March 202
Apr - 201
May - 201
June - 198
July - 201
Sept - 203
Oct - 204
Nov - 205
Dec - 204

2009
Jan - 204
Feb - 204
Mar - 204
Apr - 207
May - 204
July - 204
August - 207
Sept - 206
Nov - 210

2010
March - 223 (I started NT in Sept 2009 and put my scale away)
May - 225

Munch, I know this won’t help your back feel any better, but as I see it, you’ve only gained 19 pounds since Sept ‘09 when you started NT.  You shouldn’t base your weight gain from what your lowest weight was back in 2006, after you had your surgery.  So if we’re going to play it that way, (and we AREN’T!) I was at a very low, (starved) weight back in 2006, so that would make it 48 pounds that I gained when I reached my highest weight on NT, if we’re counting 2006 as our starting point. 

I know it’s not much of a consolation, but I think you should look at it as “only” 19 pounds.  When you are eating quality food to satisfaction each day as you have been, and not going hungry and yet never overeating, really, how much higher could your weight possibly go?  I wouldn’t think very much.  You could be at the plateau point this very moment.

I hope you are right Swan - that I’m at the plateau.  It doesn’t have to be quick weight loss, but I just don’t want to keep going up!

It was nice to hear you say in your previous post that at 8 months you were obsessing about food also.  It seems like I’m always eating.  It’s not so bad when I’m at home, but when I’m at work I have to think really hard the night before or in the morning what I can pack in my “suitcase cooler” to satisfy me and that is quick.  I’ve been eating alot of PB & J’s myself!  :-)

About three weeks ago I went to the store and purchased a few new capri’s for the summer (most of the ones I had no longer fit and I wear those a lot on the hot summer days.)  They were a size bigger, but they fit so I bought them.  It’s been a cool spring here so I haven’t even taken the tags off of them.  The other day I tried them on again before I was going to iron them and they felt tight!  I think that’s when I hit the ceiling!  So now they are sitting on a shelf.  I’ll wait another week or so and if they still don’t fit I’ll return them.  Discouraging, but I’ll press on…

Thanks for your support.  It means more than you will know.  In fact, the support on this forum is really the only thing that keeps me going.

Munch

Munch,

Sometimes if I try on an item of clothing in the morning, it can fit fine, maybe even a tad loose. If I wait and put it on after several meals, in mid-day or evening, it will feel a little tighter.

Also, some garments made of “stretch” fabric can fit great initially, then after wearing several hours, feel too loose!  Are you capris stretch fabric?  If so they may fit better after an hour or two of wearing them.

Give the clothes another try next week, sometime in the morning.  If they are still not comfortable, return them if they are not right.  You will look and feel better if the clothes fit you better.

Swan,
I have learned that over the years.  I feel better if my clothes fit me well - not too tight - not too loose.

I did purchase them in the morning and they fit good.  When I tried them on it was in the evening, so you are right - after several meals they felt tight. 

I’ll try again in a week.  One pair I really like so I hope they still work and they are the stretchy-jean type.  They other pair and a pair of shorts are just elastic waist - nothing fancy - something to get me through this summer was my hope…

Munch

Thanks for the information.  It’s clear to me that you were undereating significantly, especially during the critical first six hours, last year.  This would explain your weight gain now.

In the meantime, you want to get stabilized.  These are my recommendations:  Do not worry about “medicating your hunger.”  You don’t do this.  Instead, tune into your body exclusively and pay attention to the “stop” signal.  Don’t worry about getting hungry again in few hours.  It happens to naturally thin people all the time.  While you are eating, ask yourself whether another bite would really feel good to eat.  If you are unsure, skip it.  Try to avoid getting locked in to food types and amounts that you think you need to get full based on what you’ve eaten before.  Bodies in recovery send very subtle cues to change and it’s easy to miss if we aren’t paying attention.  Don’t be afraid of not eating enough. Your body signals will get fine tuned as you go along and respond sensitively to its signals.

If you are experiencing famines now and then, do your best to eliminate those.  This is critical.

At night, you can go hungry and not worry about a famine as long as you are at rest.  So if you get up during the night and you are hungry, you don’t need to eat.  If you can’t sleep, have the lightest food/beverage you can.  It is a big advantage in recovery to sleep on an empty stomach.

I know it feels impossible to you at times, but you have a good start. YOU HAVE A GOOD START.  You are really feeding your body well and enough probably for the first time in a long time.  The extra weight is torture and the discouragement almost worse, but I believe you are on the right track. You have perseverence and discipline, two qualities that are requirements for recovery.  Keep looking to the long haul, down the road three, four five years.  My friend Skip started NT fifteen years ago and leveled off at her ideal weight about eight years ago.  Now she never thinks about it, but the first years were very challenging.  Now she says, “If I’d kept dieting all those years, I’d still be fat and miserable.  And instead I’m thin and eating!”

Sincerely,
Jean